Comments on: Why I Don’t Convert – Essay on a Wash. Post Article http://mormonsandjews.wordpress.com/2008/02/06/declining-growth-and-hig-attrition-challenge-pres-monson/ Jews and Mormons in Dialogue Wed, 25 Mar 2009 05:02:26 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Nine Moons » Blog Archive : Sacred Space - How Are We Doing? » Sacred Space - How Are We Doing? http://mormonsandjews.wordpress.com/2008/02/06/declining-growth-and-hig-attrition-challenge-pres-monson/#comment-99 Nine Moons » Blog Archive : Sacred Space - How Are We Doing? » Sacred Space - How Are We Doing? Wed, 09 Apr 2008 18:21:55 +0000 http://mormonsandjews.wordpress.com/?p=36#comment-99 [...] of historical Mormonism and Joseph Smith (check out his blog on Mormonism and Judaism - Two Sticks) lists the lack of diversity and individuality of Mormon Sunday worship as one of several reasons he hasn’t converted to the LDS faith. Going once or twice, [...] [...] of historical Mormonism and Joseph Smith (check out his blog on Mormonism and Judaism – Two Sticks) lists the lack of diversity and individuality of Mormon Sunday worship as one of several reasons he hasn’t converted to the LDS faith. Going once or twice, [...]

]]> By: Seth R. http://mormonsandjews.wordpress.com/2008/02/06/declining-growth-and-hig-attrition-challenge-pres-monson/#comment-98 Seth R. Wed, 09 Apr 2008 04:20:22 +0000 http://mormonsandjews.wordpress.com/?p=36#comment-98 What a delightful blog! I've always been fascinated by Judaism and, as a practicing Mormon, have often felt more affinity with Judaism than I do with other varieties of Christianity. I was raised in Southern Utah (Richfield), so your description of "old Utah architecture" and the church services in Manti brought back a lot of memories for me. There's a grand old Mormon church building in central Richfield that is still used as a tabernacle. Great building. I also have a lot of tough-love sort of affection for Joseph Smith. I know about his warts and rough edges (I've read enough historical stuff on him to know that much). But I almost like him more for his flaws than I did when he was still a white-washed saint in Sunday School. I'm a big fan of his original theology and I agree with Richard Bushman's recent statement that the LDS Church always gets in trouble when it strays too far from Joseph religious thought. As for the chloroform meetings... guilty as charged I guess. However, it seems to me that the true heart of Mormon worship is not actually found at Sunday meetings, but rather at the family and personal level. It's all about personal scripture study, personal prayer, and personal service to others. I think that's where the real heart in the religion is to be found. Because I think you're right, there's only glimpses of it in church each Sunday. But I just don't see how we can fix it. You have any ideas? Anyway, thanks for the posts. Hope to read more from you. What a delightful blog! I’ve always been fascinated by Judaism and, as a practicing Mormon, have often felt more affinity with Judaism than I do with other varieties of Christianity.

I was raised in Southern Utah (Richfield), so your description of “old Utah architecture” and the church services in Manti brought back a lot of memories for me. There’s a grand old Mormon church building in central Richfield that is still used as a tabernacle. Great building.

I also have a lot of tough-love sort of affection for Joseph Smith. I know about his warts and rough edges (I’ve read enough historical stuff on him to know that much). But I almost like him more for his flaws than I did when he was still a white-washed saint in Sunday School. I’m a big fan of his original theology and I agree with Richard Bushman’s recent statement that the LDS Church always gets in trouble when it strays too far from Joseph religious thought.

As for the chloroform meetings… guilty as charged I guess. However, it seems to me that the true heart of Mormon worship is not actually found at Sunday meetings, but rather at the family and personal level. It’s all about personal scripture study, personal prayer, and personal service to others. I think that’s where the real heart in the religion is to be found. Because I think you’re right, there’s only glimpses of it in church each Sunday.

But I just don’t see how we can fix it.

You have any ideas?

Anyway, thanks for the posts. Hope to read more from you.

]]> By: Tom Irvine http://mormonsandjews.wordpress.com/2008/02/06/declining-growth-and-hig-attrition-challenge-pres-monson/#comment-96 Tom Irvine Sat, 22 Mar 2008 12:55:04 +0000 http://mormonsandjews.wordpress.com/?p=36#comment-96 Moshe, You raise some interesting points. Again, I am a Mormon who enjoys occasionally going to Torah study and Shabbat services at a Reformed Jewish Temple. I am eclectic and quirky. I wish that Jews and Mormons could blend together in a synergistic manner. We have so much to offer one another. We need not try to convert one another. The Rabbi told me that as long as I obeyed "The Seven Noahide Laws," then "I had it made." So as Mormons, we should say to our Jewish friends that "as long as you obey the Torah then you have it made." * * * * * Midrash Exodus Rabbah 25:12 - Rabbi Levi said: If Israel kept the Sabbath properly even for one day, the Son of David would come. Shalom, Tom Irvine Moshe,

You raise some interesting points. Again, I am a Mormon who enjoys occasionally going to Torah study and Shabbat services at a Reformed Jewish Temple. I am eclectic and quirky. I wish that Jews and Mormons could blend together in a synergistic manner. We have so much to offer one another.

We need not try to convert one another. The Rabbi told me that as long as I obeyed “The Seven Noahide Laws,” then “I had it made.” So as Mormons, we should say to our Jewish friends that “as long as you obey the Torah then you have it made.”

* * * * *

Midrash Exodus Rabbah 25:12 – Rabbi Levi said: If Israel kept the Sabbath properly even for one day, the Son of David would come.

Shalom,
Tom Irvine

]]> By: David Littlefield http://mormonsandjews.wordpress.com/2008/02/06/declining-growth-and-hig-attrition-challenge-pres-monson/#comment-86 David Littlefield Thu, 14 Feb 2008 03:01:01 +0000 http://mormonsandjews.wordpress.com/?p=36#comment-86 Dear Moshe: I have been meaning to engage you on these points for a while, but I have not had the time to go all the way through them, so I will address one point at a time, as I can get to them. In a light hearted way, you may have a few points. But in a serious vain, these may or may not be legitamate points, but they miss the real issue. At the core or Mormonism, from the start, we have contended that the LDS church is the restored, one and only true church. Now we try and moderate our rhetoric as to not be to overbaring, but that’s what we believe. This claim is either true or not true. If we are just one of a few interesting churches, why would anyone want to be a member? Tithing, word of wisdom, all the time spent, etc.. We can easily find fancier church buildings, more entertaining meetings (whether your taste is high church, or electric guitars), but these not the reason we are there. I suspect that if you had a spiritual witness that Joseph Smith’s claims were true, you would convert, and your points above would either go away, or you would tolerate them. Without such an epiphany, I can see why such things would be bothersome. But for me, a cookie cutter building is a light load to bear, in exchange for an occasional visit to the Holy of Holies. -David Dear Moshe:
I have been meaning to engage you on these points for a while, but I have not had the time to go all the way through them, so I will address one point at a time, as I can get to them.
In a light hearted way, you may have a few points. But in a serious vain, these may or may not be legitamate points, but they miss the real issue. At the core or Mormonism, from the start, we have contended that the LDS church is the restored, one and only true church. Now we try and moderate our rhetoric as to not be to overbaring, but that’s what we believe. This claim is either true or not true.
If we are just one of a few interesting churches, why would anyone want to be a member? Tithing, word of wisdom, all the time spent, etc.. We can easily find fancier church buildings, more entertaining meetings (whether your taste is high church, or electric guitars), but these not the reason we are there.
I suspect that if you had a spiritual witness that Joseph Smith’s claims were true, you would convert, and your points above would either go away, or you would tolerate them. Without such an epiphany, I can see why such things would be bothersome. But for me, a cookie cutter building is a light load to bear, in exchange for an occasional visit to the Holy of Holies.
-David

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